After hearing about the "Sir" drama with Bush and the Pope, it spurred a discussion between Don and I in the shower last night. Yes, we take showers together nightly...get over it! I have no desire to meet the Pope and kiss his ring...in fact, I wouldn't address him as "holiness" unless there was a gun pointed at my head...maybe not then either!
Disclaimer: If you are a hypersensitive Catholic...don't read on.
That said, I mean no disrespect to the Pope or to Catholics, but I have a thorn in my side about this. I was raised Christian (Protestant) and wouldn't consider myself religious, I consider myself to be a Spiritualist (and no, that is not a cop out to get out of going to Church on Sundays). My feelings about God (I am going to simplify for brevity's sake and leave out other Christian ideas and figures) tend to be a mixture of religions, a hodge-podge if you will of my picking and choosing (convenient I know). I can align myself more with Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism closer than Christianity (although I do not totally denounce my Christian beliefs and faith) and feel more spiritually connected with those religions. I felt more energy in the Temples in China than I ever felt. Simply put, my belief is that God is an energy that is everywhere and in everything, not a He or She, but an energy. I don't think that I need to prove my faith by going weekly to church, reading the Bible, taking communion and the other rituals of Christianity. I feel that I can be just as close to God as the Pope, or anyone else.
So, I don't really want a religious debate here or anything, but here is my problem with the Pope. I am not huge supporter of Catholicism and the Pope and have some issues there, but whatever, that's me, if your Catholic...good for you, if your happy and it feels right all is well and dandy. I just don't get what the big deal is with the Pope. He wasn't chosen by God, he was chosen by a group of men that had political aspirations at stake. Also, he is treated (at least from my point of view) as an earthly god. What is the deal with kissing his ring and calling him "holiness"...doesn't this go against The Ten Commandments that state: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol." The Pope is also always lavishly dressed and not very "of the people" like Jesus was.
So, now I can't remember half of what we talked about last night or what my point was, but bottom line, I am not a Pope fan and I wouldn't kiss his ring and I will join Bush in calling him sir, but never "holiness." Not out of disrespect...just out of disagreement.
Also, just out of curiosity...does the new Pope inherit the ring that needs to be kissed or do each get to take a trip to Tiffany's to pick one out? And do they all use the same wheelchair...like the Pope Mobile???
31 comments:
The Pope doesn't really do anything for me either. I could never be a catholic because when I need to speak to god, I need to speak to god.
PS. I believe in the force too. ;)
I forgot to mention that I hate all organized religion except for the Force.
I wanted to write a long comment, but I realize that all you said is exactly what I wanted to say. Hence, I reply: Ditto!!
Captain, The Force is strong with you!
This one was in the Hitler Youth, along with one or two other Germans of his age.
Anyway that aside, I cant look at any pope since the day, many years ago when I watched the Peter Cook & Dudley Moore sketch on 'What gives you the horn?'
I was actually in Rome when the one who lasted about 3 minutes popped his clogs. Perhaps I should have queued for 10 hours to see if he made me a stalky?
I guess I will start with the comment saying that Don is one lucky bastard! You can let him know I said so too...
Now, you got me started on this, so its all your fault. I grew up catholic and decided to get out as I have no wish to label myself a hipocrite. I am a very spiritual person but if I was to choose a religion, I would choose the same religion all other religions have chosen to follow: The worship of money! Yeah?! Bring it on, I want to hear the deeply religious dispute this issue.
For you catholics, answer me this? How much food would be purchased if we melted the Gold Pillars in St. Mark's in Rome and fed the poor with those profits. Remember, by your own words (the bible) you cannot have two masters God and Money.
I have chosen Money. So just concluding, the pope is just a man. Jenny I agree with you, he was chosen by men, not God and was chosen purely for internal political agendas. No biggie.
Flyinfox_SATX
Off the soapbox now...off to find something funny.
i could never call lord vader sumthin like darthy. dubya is such an idiot. you'd think as a politician he'd know how to address people regardless of belief or denomination.
Captain:
The Force is closer to my feelings about God than Catholicism! I am not a huge fan of organized religion either!
Yoda:
Ditto Ditto!
Isn't the Forch strong with me too???
Ratty:
Yes, the Hitler thing came up in our discussion last night too!
FlyinFox:
I love soap boxes...feel free anytime you need to get on it here!
Don...did you hear that...you are one lucky bastard!!!
Raffi:
So if you were to meet George you would address him as Mr. President and hold your tongue??? It's not like sir is derogatory, he wasn't like "what's up mofo!"
I was raised catholic and I realize that he's just a man like everyone else.
I'll kiss his ring when he kisses my ass.
You know, if there is a pile laying around, it seems we can always count on our president to step in it...
Yea, I'm not Catholic either. I'm like you, Jenny, I have a personal relationship with God and I don't feel the need to act the part of a good religious girl or go to church to demonstrate the love I have for him. He knows. I know. I live my life in an ethical manner the majority of the time and I try to be respectful and kind to people. I screw up, I realize my mistakes and learn from them, he forgives, we move on. That's good enough for me. I respect the Catholic's respect for the pope, but that is a symbolic part of their religion just as the Torah, or the pentagram is a symbolic part of other religions. He just doesn't hold "meaning" to me the way he would had I been raised Catholic.
--snow
The force is strong in this one!!
Hammer:
I love it...I wanted to say something of the sort, but didn't have the balls!
Snow:
Thats a fair assessment, but I truly find flaws in that..the other symbols are all objects, not human. Don is Catholic so I get the perspective and all, just don't buy it.
Yoda:
I thought so!
I agree that the pope weilds a lot of power. I would argue though that all religions, except maybe Hinduism which is not actually a religion but more like a collection of local beliefs all tied into one, have power figures and people. Lavish ornamentation like that of the Vatican are common and are a sign of early peoples respect and adoration of both their god and religious leaders.
I don't mind saying that I am a Christian, I also do not believe that God is male or female as God is not a person at all. I go to church but not becuase God makes me or becuase I feel guilty, I go as I am called to fellowship with other believers and to learn more, be challenged about faith and issues of justice near and far.
I guess all of that is to say that I do not know that I would call the pope "holiness" either but I think that is becuase I have no desire to address the pope at all. ALthough I do think it is important to note that the signet ring is historical and that popes do not have the life, they give a vow of poverty and before they get to live in Vatican City they usually live in a hole of a city somewhere taking care of those that society throws aside. They do good in the world.
Sarah:
I do realize that most, if not all religions have iconic figures taht are similar, but my opinion is that Pope is by far the most extreme.
The only reason I went to Church all those years back was for the community, not so much for the God stuff...I enjoyed that part of it.
Whatever - he ain't my pope so I won't be calling him anything! As far as Bush is concerned, he's just another head of state. He's due no more respect than any other.
And while we're at it, can the frigging American media stop calling people Sir [insert name here] when someone like Bono or Bob Hope or whoever gets knighted? We fought a revolution over this stuff, people. We don't recognize hereditary titles here.
Catholics say the Pope is God's embassador on earth. Who came up with the idea? The Pope of course, nothing divine about it. There is no reference to the Pope in the Bible or other christian scriptures. It is purely a self appointed role, a grab for power in 495.
Man, I have read all these responses and, Peeps, I will say that I am proud to be part of such extraordinary and unique set of thinkers. My question is, if we mostly all feel this way (and I am assuming there are many more folks with similar opinions) Why does the church have this type of power anymore? Are the simple minded and ignorant still outnumbering the intellectuals?
Jenny - here is a post challenge for ya...There is a thesis post here somewhere that can land on your blog!
Jeannie:
Agreed!
Diesel:
That's a good point! I don't understand the sir/knight thing anyhow...what is that???
Pub Man:
God's embassador on earth sounds like a good title for someone, but I feel like people consider him more than just an ambassador.
FlyinFox:
My fiance is a Catholic and feels the same way about the pope I...he says that the Pope Addicts are mostly strict sects of Catholicism mostly from Italy and Spain that are Pope Crazy and that most modern day Catholics don't hold the Pope in such high esteem.
???? Challenge ????
I don't get it???
Provocative thoughts Jenny!
I agree 100%
I am a catholic ... I don't need any excuses to get out of going to church on Sundays ... I just don't go.
the Pope looks like the Emperor from Star Wars. He's always doing the Jedi mind trick with his hands, too.
That's all.
The good worthy is a fascist cross-dresser.
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